Ep. 65, Standing in the Ashes

1. Intro

   0:00You found us. I'm so glad you did, but I am sorry that you had to.
2. 0:05Who are we? I'll tell you what we're not.
3. 0:08We're not old. We're not boring, and we're not giving up.
4. 0:13So come on into our widow circle where trauma meets humor, and we remind you that you can not only survive, but thrive.
5. 0:21This is every widow thing.

6. Host

   0:24Today, we are talking with Julie Halbert.
7. 0:28Julie lost her husband Jim in 2018 after a very quick cancer diagnosis, and he was only 51.
8. 0:35Like all of us suffering this kind of loss, Julie and her two boys had to find their new normal.
9. 0:40But instead of trying to make her life the same as much as possible, she totally turned it upside down.
10. 0:48Her grief put her on a completely different path.
11. 0:51She chose to walk away from her career as a high level legislative counsel and education attorney, and she stepped into the role of death doula, end of life educator, a transformational soul coach, like completely went in a different direction, and I'm so excited for you guys to hear her story.
12. 1:10She truly defines what we mean when we say, not only survive, but thrive.
13. 1:15She is living proof that you can take the wreckage of loss and create something deeply meaningful from it.
14. 1:21She wants to get real about death. She wants to get honest about grief.
15. 1:25She wants to show us how to live a life that is fully awake even when it's the life that we never planned for.
16. 1:31And we are so excited to have you here, Julie.
17. 1:33Thank you for joining us.

18. Julie

    1:35For It's being so nice to be with you, Whitney and Holly.
19. 1:38Thrilled to be with you and all your audience.

20. Host

    1:40Yes. I'm really excited because like I said in the intro, you you really are doing the things that we talk about on this podcast about, you know, you want to come out...
21. 1:51The goal is to come away from this experience being better than you were before, being more of who you were meant to be.
22. 2:00And we talk about that a lot about how we've changed because of our grief.
23. 2:05And and it doesn't have to be... Of course, there's sadness.
24. 2:09Of course, there's, you know, deep loss.
25. 2:11But you can come out of it... And we're gonna talk about the projects that you have, but like a phoenix, you know, and I love that.
26. 2:19But before we get into all of that, we wanna hear a little bit of your love story and talk about Jim and who he was and and how you guys met.

27. Julie

    2:28Sure. First off, so much in that that you just shared.
28. 2:32Right? And I think it's really important for everybody to know there could be so much pain and, yes, there's so much room to thrive.
29. 2:38So it really is a journey and I think, you know, I've definitely lived it and I'm grateful to be able to share it with you.
30. 2:46So my beginning story, yes, young, many years ago, decades ago, I actually saw my husband in this domestic law class and I always laugh about it because I say, we were learning about divorce when we met, which I think...

31. Host

    2:59I love that.

32. Julie

    3:00Yeah. I think that's just funny. Like, you know, what are the chances?
33. 3:03Right?

34. Host

    3:03Yeah. That's hilarious.

35. Julie

    3:04But... So he used to ride his bike. I went to University of Miami Law School.
36. 3:08That's where we met. And we're in class and I saw...
37. 3:12He was he was just so cute. I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina.

38. Host

    3:15Okay.

39. Julie

    3:15And he was like super preppy. He was just adorable.
40. 3:18And I... He just like tall, six four, blue eyes.
41. 3:21Like, he just caught my attention, like, very early on.
42. 3:24Yeah. So I thought I was coy, but I remember, like, you know, this is like...

43. Host

    3:28We always think we're coy.

44. Julie

    3:29Right? You know, right? I remember, like, looking over my shoulder and...
45. 3:32Because he was... I was a nerd. I was always towards the front, and he was, you know, very relaxed and further back.
46. 3:37And just really truly checking him out. So I was like, oh, how am I gonna meet this guy?
47. 3:43So I... Within a short... I'm very extroverted as you can tell.
48. 3:47Within a short order of time, we met and really it was just a blossoming initially of a beautiful friendship.
49. 3:55Like, say, like, you know, it was... I...
50. 3:57I'm... I have no problems here. I'm 57. He died at 51.
51. 4:01I was 50. And, at that time, it was just like this blossoming courtship.
52. 4:06It was really just beautiful. We would, like, bike together.
53. 4:10He lived in Coral Gables. I live in Coconut Grove in Miami.
54. 4:13We went to University of Miami Law School.
55. 4:15And so we spent all this time, like, biking, playing tennis, doing things in the...
56. 4:20You know, just swimming, boating, just really...
57. 4:22Obviously, we were in law school, but, you know, we really enjoyed life.
58. 4:27Mhmm.

59. Host

    4:27And that really

60. Julie

    4:27is like the core value that I bring us back to today.
61. 4:30And you know what? I love that I'm saying this to you because I've written the book, I've talked about this in the book, but I don't think I've said that out loud.
62. 4:37Yeah. And that is like a really complete full loop back to where I am today.

63. Host

    4:42That's awesome. Yeah. The way you started with Jim.
64. 4:45Yeah. That's that's pretty cool. I love that.

65. Julie

    4:48I've never said that out loud like that.
66. 4:50Just so... It's so interesting doing these podcasts, and I...
67. 4:52And I'm so excited. I know the two of you are here, I wish it was the three of you, but I said to a woman who's doing my publishing, I said I said, it's like the A interview.
68. 4:59Like, I'm really excited to talk to these women.

69. Host

    5:01I know. Keira is out of the country. She's visiting her son.
70. 5:06He's in a study abroad program. So she's in The Netherlands.

71. Julie

    5:08Oh, well, good for her. But

72. Host

    5:10Yeah. Maybe... She's gonna be bummed that she missed this.

73. Julie

    5:12When the book comes out, maybe in the fall, we'll do it again.

74. Host

    5:14Yes. Absolutely. Great idea.

75. Julie

    5:16But anyhow, so it started as a beautiful, really courtship.
76. 5:20It was like a deep friendship. And so I really kinda love that.
77. 5:24And then in time, this is funny too. These are good.
78. 5:28You're you're asking good questions because sometimes I don't even talk about these things on time.

79. Host

    5:30Yeah.

80. Julie

    5:31And in the beginning, so I was on moot court, like I was involved, which is like a board, like as far as like you are...
81. 5:37You do litigate for your your class grade.
82. 5:40You have to have a litigation. You actually go to court and you have like a mock trial, right?
83. 5:45And so Jim had like the most innocent face.
84. 5:49Like he looked so young in his face. So I was like, oh, he would be like a great witness.
85. 5:54So for all the women listening, right? I'm like, this is a great doorway to getting to know him first.
86. 5:59Yes. Had to know. So I asked him to be my witness and he agreed.
87. 6:05And so that was really actually the beginning of the relationship.
88. 6:08We were like, I literally... He was sitting at a conference room table in the law school and I was standing and I was asking him questions and it was just, this is the truth.
89. 6:17Oh my god. Vulnerable. Here we go. But like, you know, not even about death.
90. 6:21But I literally came up behind him and, like, kissed him on his neck.
91. 6:24And I... That was, like, the first time I, like, kissed him.
92. 6:26Yeah. It's the truth. My children. Are you listening, boys?
93. 6:29Right.

94. Host

    6:29Yeah. The boy went out the window, apparently.

95. Julie

    6:32Right. Exactly. You know? Like, what happened?
96. 6:34But I don't know. He just but we've been friends and so connected.
97. 6:37It was just a beautiful courtship. And so it really...
98. 6:41That was the beginning, you know?

99. Host

    6:43Yeah. I love that. And then so you get...
100. 6:45Obviously, you get married, and you have two little boys.

101. Julie

     6:49So I I... You know, there's a lot in between there.
102. 6:52Right? So I'll just give you, like, real quick Yeah.
103. 6:54Minute... Second. But we got married at 28.
104. 6:58We moved back to Pennsylvania where he was from.
105. 7:00He was in the real estate and development business.
106. 7:03Things got kinda hard. We had some really tough times at some...
107. 7:05At one point. And then we moved to Florida, where my mom and family's from, in the Tampa, Sarasota area, in 2017.
108. 7:12So I just wanna, like, But not leave that part we raised the kids in Pennsylvania.
109. 7:16We had a great upbringing. The kids just, you know, just a very wholesome, I would say, a way that it just was a very nice community.
110. 7:26And then, in Florida, my youngest was a sophomore in high school.
111. 7:30So when he was he was at, an IB, if you're familiar with an international baccalaureate program, but a great public school.
112. 7:37And he was doing sports and playing soccer and, you know, just getting engaged here.
113. 7:41And my oldest was a freshman at University of Michigan.
114. 7:44And so that's kind of where we were. You know, in my job, I work with school districts all across the country.
115. 7:50Mhmm. So I... My boss was so cool. I talk about work and, like, remote and how things have changed and COVID, etcetera.
116. 7:57But even back in that time, I went to my boss.
117. 7:58I said, listen. I really wanna do this for my family, and I was able to work out a deal for me to work...
118. 8:03Like, was already working remotely back and forth to DC, but he was amazing.
119. 8:07Like, so

120. Host

     8:07cool. Good. Yeah. I would think Florida would be a fun place to...
121. 8:11I mean

122. Julie

     8:11Oh my gosh.

123. Host

     8:12Shut up. And, obviously, you guys had the whole Miami experience too, which I don't think I would've gotten through law school if I was in Miami.

124. Julie

     8:21I hear you. I think some people have it as a challenge for sure.
125. 8:24But, you know, we love the water. So we have a boat.
126. 8:27We spend a ton of time, like, kayaking. And so the water is, like, you know, it's really funny and I don't...
127. 8:33See, we never know what we're gonna talk about.

128. Host

     8:34I know. The four of

129. Julie

     8:35us in my family were all water signs. So my grandson, youngest is a Pisces.
130. 8:40My others... My oldest... Our birthdays are a day apart.
131. 8:42We're both in July. And then my husband was in Scorpio.
132. 8:45It was... He was in October.

133. Host

     8:47Oh, wow. Yeah. That's awesome. So... Okay.
134. 8:50So 2017, you pick up your family and you move.
135. 8:54And and a teenage son, that had to be hard for him.
136. 8:59So were... You were you were navigating real life.

137. Julie

     9:02Absolutely. I don't wanna I don't wanna put that to the side because it's, like, very real and and and, like, the stress around his work and life and what...
138. 9:09And whatnot definitely contributed. Listen.
139. 9:11I want everyone to know, right, our stress and our lives contribute to disease.
140. 9:15They contribute to what I call, like, are we in ease or dis ease?
141. 9:18And it's a serious conversation. Stress is very real.

142. Host

     9:21So... I remember the first time I heard dis ease, and I'm like, oh, disease.
143. 9:28Dis ease. I had never really... You you just don't think about separating it like that.
144. 9:32You're just reading disease, but it really is true.

145. Julie

     9:35It's so true. Your prefrontal cortex, like, when we're in fight or flight and we're giving off cortisol and what that does for, like, PTSD that people read about or Bessel Vanacock writes a book, The Body Keeps

146. Host

     9:45the Score. Mhmm.

147. Julie

     9:46I mean, I bring that to my speaking and a lot of work that I do.
148. 9:49And it's really... When we are in stress, like, right, how do we manage it?
149. 9:53Do we go internally or do we fight or do we work towards healing?
150. 9:58So we'll talk about all of that, but all of those definitely contributed.
151. 10:02But my youngest son, his name's William.
152. 10:04He was a great sport. He played soccer at Riverview.
153. 10:07He was in the IB program. The teachers were phenomenal.
154. 10:11The principal were... It was just great.
155. 10:13And even when the time came for the passing of my husband and when he died, they couldn't have been more supportive.
156. 10:17So we were we were really blessed. I was really grateful.

157. Host

     10:20Let's talk about that. Sure. All of that time, it was a very short time.
158. 10:26So just take us through how how it started.

159. Julie

     10:29Well, I

160. Host

     10:30I have a question real quick. Sure. How how long had you been in the new...
161. 10:34Like, since

162. Julie

     10:35you moved before he got sick? So not Holly, you know, not very long.
163. 10:39And I really felt... It's a good question because I really felt really sad about it.
164. 10:43Like, it was it was something... He loved the water.
165. 10:45He was so excited to be. We had that, you know, as...
166. 10:48We were on Siesta. We were actually running at the time, and we were...
167. 10:51He... We were, like, three minutes out, you know, on the boat.
168. 10:54Right? And so he was so excited for that space and he was transitioning for his own work.
169. 11:00And I was really sad because it wasn't that long.
170. 11:02It was it was early to... Summer of two thousand seventeen and then he died 12/06/2018.
171. 11:07So it's a great question. You know, I...
172. 11:10After he died, I moved into a new place, and I'm in my own place.
173. 11:14I kinda created a sanctuary of my own. But, yeah, it wasn't long.
174. 11:18So it was...

175. Host

     11:18I think a lot of widows, you know, I mean, it's just natural that your brain will go to, oh, this isn't fair.
176. 11:24We had all this planned. And like for me too, I...
177. 11:27We had just moved to Austin and he died three months later.
178. 11:30Yeah. He... Three months after we moved here.
179. 11:32And you're just like, no. This wasn't in the plan.
180. 11:36Like, I... We had so so much that we were gonna do here.
181. 11:41And I'm sure, especially because you were gonna be empty nesters soon, like, you had these ideas of what your life was gonna look like as this couple in Florida with your water and your...
182. 11:52You know, you get to recouple and... Yeah.
183. 11:55And and then it just... Life

184. Julie

     11:57can suck sometimes. It'd be hard. Right?
185. 11:59And so we... You know, you go through tough times and everybody that...
186. 12:02We were together twenty five years. Right?
187. 12:03So it's like, to be so grateful to be in this space.
188. 12:06Right?

189. Host

     12:07Mhmm.

190. Julie

     12:07Mhmm. And, like, not to have the opportunity to fully...
191. 12:10For him to fully live it. Like, our kids, we enjoy it tremendously.
192. 12:14But I think about that often. So I appreciate, Holly, that you asked that question, like, how long?
193. 12:18Because it wasn't long. And and I feel for you, Whitney.
194. 12:21That just sucks. Three months is...

195. Host

     12:22Yeah. It it sucks. But... And, I mean, in...
196. 12:24Like, did you know very... I mean, you'd been there.
197. 12:27I mean... Your parents were there. But...

198. Julie

     12:30No. But it was new in a sense. My family, my brother and cousins and uncles and people all live in Tampa, and I went to high school, some in Tampa.
199. 12:37But my parents are in the Sarasota area.
200. 12:39They're about twenty five minutes from me.
201. 12:40You know, they're in, like, like, the inland a little bit.
202. 12:43But, no, this was new. It was a new com...
203. 12:45Newer community because we chose Sarasota over Tampa.
204. 12:48And so, yeah, it was still a a transition, but I I love people.
205. 12:52I love community work. I still had my job.
206. 12:54I mean, I... We loved all of what... Where we were, so that was really positive.
207. 12:58It's just the timing. So to go back to your question, Whitney, about what happened is really...
208. 13:04You know, it's so interesting because it's a work...
209. 13:07It's a death doula, and I'm talking to these producers about a film we're working.
210. 13:10Their their their film and my book, and we're doing a whole collaboration with Hospice and the Hospice Foundation of America with education.
211. 13:17And part of what we were talking about is, like, you you have terminal illness, and Jim was terminal illness, but then you have, you know, tragic, traumatic accidental deaths, which we And talked about the other day, so Jim died literally in three weeks.
212. 13:31Initially, they thought it was like an infection.
213. 13:34So there was a time before that in which they gave him an antibiotic because his white blood cell counts were high.
214. 13:40And we had been in Belize, we'd been on a cruise, and his doctor just thought it was an infection, And kind of what transferred is that my sister-in-law was pregnant and my mother's birthday, we were supposed to go to brunch and Jim just looked at me.
215. 13:53He said, Honey, I don't know what is wrong.
216. 13:55The doctors keep on taking these antibiotics.
217. 13:58They even did a bone marrow biopsy thought, oh, maybe it was leukemia and that was negative.
218. 14:04Can you imagine? Like like then I was like so happy it was negative.
219. 14:08Now I think, gosh, I wish it was. We had a chance to fight something.
220. 14:11We had no opportunity to fight anything.
221. 14:13There was no... You know? So initially, then we finally went...
222. 14:17We went to the hospital. I'm like, honey, we have to go to the hospital.
223. 14:19There's... We don't have a choice. We don't know what's going on.
224. 14:21The doctors aren't giving us information.
225. 14:22So we went into the hospital on November 5.
226. 14:25It was a Monday morning. And they initially, you know, it's so hard to go back to those moments, but they initially did all kinds of initial scans and blood work, and there was no markers for anything that was cancer.
227. 14:38They saw clearly that his white blood cells were high.
228. 14:41And, we ended up in the hospital that week and it was like an ebb and flow.
229. 14:46Like we had infectious disease expert and also doctors from Moffitt Cancer.
230. 14:50And eventually in the middle of that week, they did a liver biopsy and he did not have liver cancer.
231. 14:55So let's just sit with me and be in this crazy space.
232. 14:58Right? So there's no

233. Host

     14:59And you're getting what you think is good news in a way because it's like, okay.
234. 15:02It's not this cancer. It's not this. It's that.
235. 15:05But at the same time, it's not... You don't know what it is.
236. 15:09So it's just this limbo.

237. Julie

     15:11And I felt so bad for him, you guys. It was just horrifying for him because he was so frustrated.
238. 15:16Before we even got to the hospital, he was like, he has a very, like...
239. 15:20He's a, you know, kind introverted disposition.
240. 15:23And he was so frustrated. He's like, How do you go to a hematologist, oncologist, and they can't give you answers?
241. 15:28Like, is that Yeah. That's frustrating. They treat all these people, but you can't treat me?
242. 15:33Like, what's going on?

243. Host

     15:35I know. My husband had some stomach issues that were never figured out, and he would always be like, I don't get it.
244. 15:42I'm great at my job. And people come to me, and I figure it out.
245. 15:45And then we're going to the best people, and they can't figure it out.
246. 15:50They're they're supposed to be the best at their job.
247. 15:53And I'm like, I know.

248. Julie

     15:54I... And it's so frustrating. Right? The frustration is real.
249. 15:57So anyhow, that week in the hospital, we really had ups and downs.
250. 16:01Like, his... We were so excited one day.
251. 16:03I think I told you this briefly, but, like, one day, like, the...
252. 16:06With the infectious disease, his white blood cell count went down, like, significantly.
253. 16:10And my, older son Jacob had come from college, and he was there with him.
254. 16:15And, you know, we're like, okay. My son...
255. 16:17My husband loved pizza. We're like, we're going to get this nasty pizza from the cafeteria.
256. 16:21But he was like so excited to get this nasty pizza from the cafeteria.
257. 16:24It's funny how like, know, I'm sure all of you, have these like things in our minds, but I could see that and we thought like for about a day, about twenty four hours, you thought, oh my god.
258. 16:31Thank god. It's an infection. It's gonna be okay, and we're moving forward.

259. Host

     16:37And what's what's he... And and he's he's fully aware and talking, and he he doesn't feel well, but it's not like he's going in and out of consciousness.

260. Julie

     16:46Or... Not even not even a little bit. He's completely aware.
261. 16:49He's completely lucid almost to the day before he died.

262. Host

     16:51So nobody's thinking at this point this could end badly.
263. 16:56But he had to be bad enough to where they kept him in the hospital.
264. 17:01Usually they're like, Scooch on out.

265. Julie

     17:04He had, right, get out of here.

266. Host

     17:08Yeah, on He out of

267. Julie

     17:10was sweating, he was losing weight and he had loss of appetite, which are often signs for cancer, right?
268. 17:15So those were signs that he did have and see, and Holly, it's a good question, right?
269. 17:22Because this is where I say to everyone listening, like, where does our intuition come into play?
270. 17:27Where is it that we're listening? You know, one of the ER doctors said to me this, right?
271. 17:32And I was telling Whitney this in the pre interview, just said to me, get whoever home that needs to be home.
272. 17:37And I'm like, why is he saying this to me?
273. 17:40Right? Like there was no indication of why.

274. Host

     17:42Right. There was no prep. Why? And and it was very vague too.
275. 17:46And you're just like, nobody's giving you...
276. 17:49Obviously thought that these doctors had these thoughts in their head of like, this is not good and he, you know, he might not make it.
277. 17:56Did you look at him and say, why?

278. Julie

     17:59Well, I looked at him like, listen, I'm a lawyer, right, by training.
279. 18:02So, like, I inquisitively said, what do you mean?
280. 18:04Do you mean, like, immediately? He's like, no.
281. 18:06Just just, you know, whoever needs to come, like, come home.
282. 18:10And and I did ask questions. I'm like, are you saying, like, within a month?
283. 18:12Are you saying within a week? I think I did.
284. 18:14Yeah. It's it's like my natural thing just to kinda ask some questions.
285. 18:17And then I remember going back into... With my mom into the ER space and thinking, you know, this guy was not even our doctor.
286. 18:23He was like that one of the head ER doctors, but he was an our doctor.
287. 18:26And I was thinking, he's crazy. And so you immediately repress what you don't wanna hear.
288. 18:30And I just went back into my survival mode of like, okay.
289. 18:33What do we need to do? So what happened was he had a liver biopsy that Wednesday, And I remember, going down with him, like into the basement, kissing him on his forehead and saying, Honey, I love you.
290. 18:44It's going be okay. And just being with him.
291. 18:47And after that, it was the next day that everything just fell apart.
292. 18:52The Moffitt cancer doctor pulled my mom and I, and you think about it, like all of the, any of the horrible ER doctor shows, from Grey's Anatomy to Pulse to whatever, I was in this conference room with the tissues on table.
293. 19:07And man, I see that table. I have hives just thinking about it.
294. 19:11It was the Formica and just, ugh, just all of it.
295. 19:16And he says to us, he had what they called undifferentiated cells that were in the liver, but they couldn't figure out where the primary cancer was from.
296. 19:27So this is called cancer of an unknown primary.
297. 19:31And less than three percent of people are diagnosed with that annually, at least it wasn't that year, because they can't figure out how to treat the cancer because they can't figure out where it's coming from.
298. 19:42Oh, wow. Okay. So you talk about frustration from what we're talking about from before.
299. 19:48My husband... I was like I was like in...
300. 19:50My mother and I were just in a state of craze, just completely like, you know, and of course, like, my dad...
301. 19:56Everybody's involved, but just

302. Host

     19:57my mom... But Jim is in his hospital room, and they pull you guys into another room.
303. 20:02So have they even told Jim this? No. They're telling you guys, but he's perfectly aware and competent and...
304. 20:09Exact... And that's a

305. Julie

     20:10very important point. Right? Because they're, like, forewarning us first, And of course, he's completely aware.
306. 20:16And of course, the day before, we're all but celebrating the fact that we think it's an infection.
307. 20:20So, you you talk about ebb and flowing, like, it was just stressful beyond means.
308. 20:25So yes, of course, they tell him. Of course, they explain this cancer of an unknown primary, and we get released from the hospital that Saturday.
309. 20:34So we were in the hospital not quite a week, and we go into...
310. 20:39Listen, I was a major attorney. I am a type a.
311. 20:43I am... Find it, whatever. So my mom and I are, like, calling everybody we know.
312. 20:48What do we need to do? And to be honest, I had a cousin who's...
313. 20:52Actually, ex husband who is still very close to us, whose family member was in charge of radiology at MD Anderson.
314. 20:57That's the truth. And we were able to get into MD Anderson, like literally within like less than ten days.
315. 21:02Was Thanksgiving between. We got to... We were seeing the top GI specialists of all of MD Anderson within a very short timeframe.
316. 21:12We had to... The next week, he had to have a PET scan done.
317. 21:15He had to have an endoscopy, a colonoscopy, and then it was Thanksgiving literally the next day.
318. 21:20And then we left Sunday evening for Tampa and then to Houston, like, that Monday.
319. 21:26I mean, it was... And and literally, we went to Houston, and this is really sad, but this is, you know...
320. 21:32Again, like, the doctor, she was really nice, but the resident...
321. 21:37And this is, I guess, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm always like, ugh, you know, it's not slander if it's the truth.
322. 21:41But the resident was so cold. Her nonverbals were so, like, you know, he's just gonna die.
323. 21:47Like, I felt the energy of just... Of such lack of compassion.
324. 21:51And the doctor herself had tears coming down her eyes and she was seeing and evaluating Jim and she's like, Let me just put the pathology, let me send it back to them.
325. 22:04Because we had some from the liver biopsy, we had to decide, does what they had, did it go to MD Anderson or did it go to like Foundations One to try to get information for the immunotherapy?
326. 22:15You have to make all these quick decisions.
327. 22:16So stressful and you're so emotionally deprived.
328. 22:19But, anyhow, she said, let me just see and, you know, you'll come back here on Thursday and we'll see if there's any chance that we could do treatment.
329. 22:29And, I literally came back. And one of my best friends was with me, she stayed with my husband back in, like, the suite...
330. 22:35The hotel that we were staying at. And I was...
331. 22:38Talk about denial. It didn't matter what anybody told me.
332. 22:40I was stacked with every... Like, from food to wine to whatever thinking that we were staying for, like, weeks, and my son was gonna be living with his grandparents and going to school, and my sister was coming to help.
333. 22:51I mean, I literally did not see what was coming.

334. Host

     22:54Well, you just keep thinking, well, we're at we're at MD Anderson.
335. 22:58Like, they can figure this out. And it's it's almost like you said, you're just in survival mode.
336. 23:04You literally cannot... You can't process it.
337. 23:08And because they're not even naming it yet, you're like, okay.
338. 23:12Well, once they find out where it's coming from, they'll They'll fix we'll fix it.

339. Julie

     23:17Yeah. And it's just natural to feel that way.
340. 23:19And I guess, you know, at Holly, one point...
341. 23:20So it's amazing how even now you have the brain fog, but he had something called ascites.
342. 23:25So he would get fluid in his stomach, and that was part of the problem.
343. 23:27So by that time, when we were going to MD Anderson, not when we first went to the hospital, but afterwards.
344. 23:34So, she was concerned a lot about the fluid in his stomach, and that definitely, again, is like an indication that there's a a significant problem.
345. 23:42So I was very still hopeful, and I still was doing everything we could.
346. 23:47But, to make it, you know, I guess, quicker to the point, that Thursday, I went back.
347. 23:53I met with the, like, the doctor, the resident.
348. 23:55All the social workers were there. You know, clearly, I know that it's not good.
349. 23:59Then when you have a whole team of people and they're pulling you into another room, different different table set up, diff...
350. 24:04Now I'm, like, in a rectangular form with more tissues and more whatever.
351. 24:07And I'm, like... I just... My husband was on the phone with my dearest friend, my...
352. 24:13His brother, who's a doctor, my sister, who's a hospice nurse.
353. 24:16Everybody was on the phone with me on speaker with them and listening to what they had to say because I needed whatever support I could possibly

354. Host

     24:23have. And like you said, you're you're in you're in a brain fog too.
355. 24:27So even if in... Under normal circumstances, you would understand what's being said, I don't think you you you can.
356. 24:33Your brain's just not working at the same capacity.
357. 24:36Capacity.

358. Julie

     24:37You know what? I wanted to take a moment to to maybe emphasize this for your listeners because what you said is really, really important.
359. 24:42All of us have been in this space some way...
360. 24:44One way or another. And if you have an opportunity that somebody, friend, family member, whomever can be with you.
361. 24:54Like my girlfriend went with me and she has a medical background and then like really clinical and public health and whatnot.
362. 25:01She goes, Julie, you go so you can be the wife and I'm going go with you so that I can deal with medical.
363. 25:06Even, and if you don't have that support, put a voice memo on, record the conversation, do whatever you can do to have somebody else with you because even today we talk about it and we heard things differently.
364. 25:19So it's really

365. Host

     25:20It's so important. I because I was in the situation when my husband died in the car accident, my son was injured.
366. 25:28So I was in full on, save my baby mode and my good friend is a nurse.
367. 25:38I was like, Please, just be there. The doctor is talking to me and I'm like, I don't even know what he's talking about.
368. 25:47I can't... You know, so Kim was there, like, taking notes and explaining everything to me.
369. 25:54It's so important. Well, would even say to people listening, you know, even if you don't have a medical background, grab somebody with a notebook and they can be writing things down or or recording it on their phone just to have another set of ears and maybe a brain that is not traumatized, you know.
370. 26:15And that's what happened to me in the beginning.
371. 26:17I also have a friend that's an ear doctor and she listened in, but I also had a friend that just came up with a notebook and just started taking notes.
372. 26:24And and it was... Not only was it helpful because I had the information, but it was comforting to me because I'm trying to understand everything.
373. 26:34I'm trying to listen, but I'm not able to fully focus.
374. 26:39So it made me feel better. So even if you don't have a friend that's in the medical field, you know, grab somebody with a notebook.
375. 26:47Yeah.

376. Julie

     26:47And and and I think what's really important and for every one of us to say, you know, how grateful we are to those people Mhmm.
377. 26:54For showing up for us. Right? I just... I'm gonna cry.
378. 26:58See? It's like all these years... But I don't know if any of you watched Madison that's out on Paramount.

379. Host

     27:02Girl. Girl. I'm scared to watch it because it's so sad.
380. 27:06It is so raw and so real. And I mean, shout out to Michelle Pfeiffer, but also to Taylor Sheridan.
381. 27:14I don't understand how he understands grief so well, but he's written about it multiple times in different shows.
382. 27:21And I always am so impressed. I'm like, he nailed it.
383. 27:26Nailed it.

384. Julie

     27:27But, you know, I mean, it does make me cry, but that scene for whoever's listening, if you haven't watched it, but there's a scene where a dear friend goes with Michelle Pfeiffer into the water.
385. 27:36Mhmm. Sitting right there, and she's like...
386. 27:39And it's funny because she's in all of her fancy clothes.

387. Host

     27:41Right.

388. Julie

     27:41And, you know, afterwards, I I reached out to my dearest friend who was with me in Texas, and I just says...
389. 27:47I said, you know, her name is Rachel. I just said, you know, honey, I just want you to know.
390. 27:51I know I said thank you many a times, but the level of gratitude I have Mhmm.
391. 27:56Or how you were there for us and how you showed up for us.
392. 28:00And those moments, I mean, it is, like, so important for people to realize.
393. 28:05Like...

394. Host

     28:05And not even trying to make it better. Like, think you talk in some of the things that I've read about how, you know, it's not about fixing it.
395. 28:15You know. You just sit in it. Sit in it with us.
396. 28:19Be there. Hold space.

397. Julie

     28:22Yeah. There's nothing to fix. I say that all the time, you know.

398. Host

     28:25Yeah. He's still dead. They're all still dead.

399. Julie

     28:27You know, but the grief is so real and being in presence, even I think like Holly, like you were saying, just having your friend present with you, like having that sense of being with somebody, there's such...
400. 28:41It just does something for your heart. I think that's, you know, that's...
401. 28:44And I believe too, you know, Whitney, we talked about it, but some of the work I do in coaching is like through heart coherence.
402. 28:49And that's where we begin to work through a lot of the grief.
403. 28:53I call it, you know, finding the beauty through the pain.
404. 28:56The death is real. The grief is real. But how do we come out the other side?
405. 29:00And that's the work. It's really a choice and it's remember

406. Host

     29:06my boys, I have like a visual of Zach sitting on the couch.
407. 29:14He wasn't supposed to watch TV because he had had some head trauma.
408. 29:21And I remember his best friend,

409. Julie

     29:22he and his

410. Host

     29:23best friend just sitting on the couch together.
411. 29:25They were just sitting side by side and his friend was just there, just there with him.
412. 29:31And my other son, same thing, like his buddies would just come over and they would just hang out.
413. 29:38They weren't necessarily talking And they would just like
414. 29:42Just sitting in the water with be there.

415. Julie

     29:44It's the best example. Right?

416. Host

     29:46Yeah. So Good. Well, so let's go back into the hospital.
417. 29:51And you said even up until the day before, Jim was very present and...

418. Julie

     29:57Oh. I mean, Jim was super present. So let me just...
419. 30:00So MD Anderson, you know, not to rush through that point, but he...
420. 30:04Basically, I went in that day and she said the doctor, head doctor, her name is doctor Bhartachari, and it's very sad.
421. 30:09She passed from breast cancer a few years after my husband had Oh, no.
422. 30:13Gosh. And I found out through a professional person that we were aligned with, I think that she'd just gotten diagnosed when she saw my husband.
423. 30:20And I think she realized how aggressive his cancer was and what she was facing.
424. 30:25She had the best help

425. Host

     30:26This is the one that was crying?

426. Julie

     30:27Yes. It wasn't about my husband. It was about what she was seeing for herself.
427. 30:32And she literally died with young kids similar to my age a few years later.
428. 30:36So, and she was phenomenal. I mean, she was literally on the cover, like inside a full page ad of USA TODAY magazine when we were going to the hospital that week.
429. 30:46So, I mean, I'm talking to you the best, the best, the best.
430. 30:48But anyhow, she literally said to Jim, Jim, I could put you in the hospital and you will die of an infection or you can go home to your children.
431. 30:56And Jim was like, I want to go home and I wanna go home now.
432. 30:59And my best friend was able to arrange. This was in the morning.
433. 31:03We got in on Angel Medevac that afternoon.
434. 31:06They flew us home from Texas to Florida by, you know, ambulance.
435. 31:11He was on a gurney, you know, out of the hotel into the ambulance, into the airplane, into an ambulance, back into our home, and hospice was at our house the next day in Sarasota.

436. Host

     31:23I I... You know, both of our husbands died from sudden death.
437. 31:28So I can't imagine those moments where it's like there's nothing more we can do, and you're leaving the place that you thought was going to solve all the problems.
438. 31:41Mhmm. Where is your head space? Where are...
439. 31:45I mean, I guess you're still in survival mode, but can you talk us through your...

440. Julie

     31:49No, it was different. It definitely was different.
441. 31:52It was definitely, chattering to the soul, right?
442. 31:56Like I definitely felt it. I definitely knew at that moment that he was going to die.
443. 32:01It was the hardest, You guys are good, you're asking good questions.
444. 32:06I'm just bringing up all kinds of emotion here.
445. 32:08It was the hardest thing for me because my...
446. 32:10William was in school, he was in high school and I wasn't with him and he was...
447. 32:17I had to let him know that we were coming home.
448. 32:20Yeah. And he knew if we were coming home, it wasn't good.
449. 32:23And I had to let my older son know the same.
450. 32:28Like, you talk about like your son, like your husband's dying, but yet your son, it's like all of these mixed emotions are going on at the same time because all I wanted to do was to protect them.
451. 32:38Right? Like, all I wanted was to be able to say, you know, your dad's gonna be okay.
452. 32:43You're right. Like, talking about fixing.
453. 32:45Like, yeah.

454. Host

     32:46Yeah. When you you can... You're like, I can handle my own pain, but I cannot handle their pain.
455. 32:51Like, that is... Hurts me so much more.

456. Julie

     32:55Right.

457. Host

     32:55You just... Yeah. It's just heartbreaking.
458. 32:58And and is Jim trying to stay strong and be like, I mean, how does that look?

459. Julie

     33:04No? Let me just tell you how Jim was. Okay?
460. 33:07The game is like... Jim to me is like, this is a lesson for everybody listening.
461. 33:12And I'm like, okay. These are these are my lessons that have brought me to today in a big way.
462. 33:17I'm serious. So he's in the gurney, and he's talking to the ambulance drivers, and he's having these full conversations.
463. 33:24And I'm looking at him being... Like like, I'm looking at the physical of what's going on, and I'm inside just...
464. 33:29And he is literally as kind as he can be having conversations with these people.
465. 33:35And I'm thinking, how is he having conversations?
466. 33:37Like, I I mean, I remember this in my head, like, going like, oh my god.
467. 33:41And my best friend, Rachel, she she literally...
468. 33:45And I... She goes, Julie, I don't know why I did it.
469. 33:47I knew I was never gonna see Jim again. He...
470. 33:50They took him into the back of the ambulance.
471. 33:51It's open. She takes a picture of him from...
472. 33:54And, like, I have a picture will be... That's in the book of of, like, the ambulance and him, like...
473. 33:59She's, like, literally looking into the ambulance.
474. 34:01Right? And I'm in the front seat and we're on the way to the airport.
475. 34:05Right? And I am listening to him and he's like, have you guys ever been to Sarasota?
476. 34:10Like, he looks like so friendly. Then we get on the plane and he's saying, well, maybe my boys can take you out on the boat.
477. 34:17How long do you have? You have twenty four hours?
478. 34:19How long do you have to be in Sarasota? And so I always sit with that because what I am teaching now is about living awake and about being present and about being in the now.
479. 34:32Right? Like, moment with y'all, it's right now.
480. 34:34This is our moment. We're in it together energetically.
481. 34:38It's real. And he was able, after getting news that there was nothing to be done, find a way to kindness.

482. Host

     34:47Yeah. Inviting people out on the boat. Yeah.

483. Julie

     34:51And they were probably like, why are

484. Host

     34:53you in on this gurney? Why? You know, like, he's...
485. 34:56Yeah. So full of life in that moment. Right.

486. Julie

     34:59Well, just he just still was... Had gratitude.
487. 35:02He was grateful for these people that were taking him home to his children.

488. Host

     35:07Mhmm. Wow. And so what... So you said then the next day hospice is there.

489. Julie

     35:15So, you know, it's so interesting because I can...
490. 35:17And even before that, when we got home, the kids are...
491. 35:19My kids have got... You know, they're there, my brother-in-law, my sister.
492. 35:23So everybody's, like, waiting for us to come in from the ambulance, and I can see, like, we have a sectional, and we sit down and our dog, we have this adorable black and tan Cavalier King Charles.
493. 35:32I see relief on my husband's face as he is telling them about everything from Houston.
494. 35:38And he is just so grateful to be surrounded by love and to be with his family.
495. 35:44And that's the truth. Like, I I... There's so many moments in that last...
496. 35:48It was only one week. He came... We came home Thursday evening around eight.
497. 35:53He died the following Thursday at 03:33PM on December 6.
498. 35:57It was literally Thursday to Thursday. And hospice did come in the next day, immediately enrolled him.
499. 36:05And they were wonderful. I mean, sister was a hospice nurse.
500. 36:07My brother-in-law is a pediatric doctor.
501. 36:09We had a lot of support within the family, but they were phenomenal.
502. 36:15Wow. Wow. That's crazy.

503. Host

     36:17And I... I'm just so fascinated because like I said, we don't we don't have those moments because our husbands died instantly for the most part.
504. 36:27And I'm just... I... I'm always fascinated with what does that last week look like?
505. 36:32Does he get tired of having people wanna come over and say goodbye?
506. 36:36Or is he... You know, are the boys just trying to keep it together?
507. 36:40Is everyone just faking it? Or do you really have moments where you're feeling alive and...
508. 36:47Yeah. You know?

509. Julie

     36:48It

510. Host

     36:48very

511. Julie

     36:48real. There was no faking Yeah. So... Yeah.
512. 36:53No. We and I am like this now. Right? Again, for all your listeners, depending on where you are in the process, like, have your boundaries.
513. 37:00It's okay to have boundaries. Say yes when it's a hell yes and say no when it's a no and really honor that.

514. Host

     37:06Yeah.

515. Julie

     37:06So people that didn't want to come to the house, didn't come to the house.
516. 37:12Family members, siblings, cousins, people who really were connected, they came and that's who he saw, he wanted to see.
517. 37:20Unfortunately, his father had died in 2013.
518. 37:23His mother was in a skilled nursing facility up in Pennsylvania.
519. 37:27So she... I remember, like, it was, like, yesterday and, you know, he...
520. 37:33I grew up Jewish and Jim converted, but he was talking about like Christmas like it is early days and he was just talking with like such gratitude for so many of his like childhood memories and telling his mom thank you and that she was like the most wonderful mother and that he he was just...
521. 37:49Again, like you talk about, like, the ambulance drivers, he is taking care Yeah.
522. 37:53Of everybody I mean, he was amazing how he was holding space.
523. 37:59He was dying.

524. Host

     38:00And he... I I wouldn't ever want him to go to sleep.
525. 38:03Like, I would just be, like, wanting to curl up and just, like, soak in every moment and not let him...
526. 38:11Don't don't fall asleep. Like, let's talk.
527. 38:12Let's... We have this time.

528. Julie

     38:14Yeah.

529. Host

     38:14It would almost... It it almost is very...
530. 38:16It's stress... It's stressing me thinking about that how heavy those moments are and how important

531. Julie

     38:24Whitney, they I didn't know when he was gonna die that time.
532. 38:27Right?

533. Host

     38:27Yeah.

534. Julie

     38:28I still couldn't have imagined it would been a week.

535. Host

     38:30Right.

536. Julie

     38:31Right? Like, even though we're in it, like, I I didn't know...
537. 38:35I knew it wasn't good, but like like, like who dies within a period of three weeks?
538. 38:39Like, it's just no diagnosis, no treatment, no nothing.
539. 38:42Like, it just... So at that point, I want to answer your question because it's really one great lesson to share with everybody that I did do.
540. 38:49And so really living, there were a couple of things.
541. 38:54One, it's really important to bring the joy into the household, wherever that is.
542. 38:59So my niece kind of surprised my husband, and she came, and the kids were all outside, and we're, like, against the water and he could just hear them laughing and being kids.
543. 39:13And he said to me, he goes, oh, he's like, it's like they're children again.
544. 39:17They're little kids. You know, were 16, 19.
545. 39:19There was, you know, there were still adolescent teenagers versus, you know, being very little.
546. 39:23But he said it was like yesterday and it was...
547. 39:25It did so much for his heart to hear that laughter.
548. 39:28So one, it's important to really be present.
549. 39:31Two, my younger son said to me, Mom, what can I do?
550. 39:35How... He... He's more of an introvert, very deep, very sensitive, has a huge heart like my husband.
551. 39:41And I don't know why I said this. Like, this just kinda came through me.
552. 39:44And then I said, honey, why don't you...
553. 39:46You're a beautiful writer. Why don't you write to daddy what you're thankful for?
554. 39:51What you're... What are the things that he taught you?
555. 39:53Where is it that you have gratitude for the different lessons in life?
556. 39:58And write it and then sit down, snuggle next to him in bed and read it to him.
557. 40:03He did he did that. And and we have that letter and it's in my book.
558. 40:07And what I do in my book is, like, I share my story and then there's, a meditation and then there's what I call reflection pauses.
559. 40:16So then it's really like for the reader to go on your own healing journey through the book.
560. 40:22And I give examples of these type of questions, just like what my son did that anybody can do for any loved one, a friend, for anybody.
561. 40:29And so there's very real living that can be done in that space.
562. 40:35And that does take me to being a death doula because living at the end of life and really honoring the patient and we call it the circle of support, but all the family, all the friends, whoever is present at that end of life, no matter if it's minutes, hours, or days, that you really are honoring the family, your wishes, and the wishes of the person dying.
563. 40:58Wow.

564. Host

     40:59Yeah. Well, let's go there. So my question, I I...
565. 41:04And I... You're kind of explaining it, but when Whitney, when we were talking yesterday, I was like, My question is how is Adept Doula different from hospice?

566. Julie

     41:17Yeah, it's great.

567. Host

     41:17You're kind of going into that already, so now I'm starting to understand.
568. 41:24It's more about the is it like walking the people, the family around them

569. Julie

     41:31through it? So, first of all, that's a beautiful way to kind of share it.
570. 41:35A lot of people describe it as like a gap in the medical field as far as like, if you're in the hospital or you have palliative care that could be either in the hospital or at home, because that's comfort care, right?
571. 41:48And then in hospice, when they come for hospice, I mean, I'm sure, for any of your listeners that have unfortunately lost someone with cancer or terminal illness, the nurses and people, they come and they go, they don't stay.
572. 42:01So you have to deal with support. My brother-in-law think I was a doctor, so that was really helpful.
573. 42:06But you have to support the in between, or you have to hire a nurse to be somebody to be at home 20 fourseven.
574. 42:12Depending on the need of the patient. And some of my clients are not, some people are at different stages of dying.
575. 42:17So it just depends because you could be, you know, in hospice, normally the criteria that it's like within six months of dying.
576. 42:23But to answer your question about a death doula, it really can be different at different stages.
577. 42:30So for example, all of us, everybody, us included, we all know we're gonna die.
578. 42:34So how do you prepare for that? So that could be like, I have advanced directives.
579. 42:39Do you have a DNR? Do you know, do not resuscitate?
580. 42:42You know, do you wanna be innovated or not depending on the circumstances?
581. 42:46These are like very major decisions, but they really empower you to make the decision rather than putting it on a family member to have to make it for you.

582. Host

     42:54Well, think somebody... We had we had a friend on who was in hospice, and it's like you do so much for a birth plan, and you have all these, ideas of what you want your...
583. 43:04The birth of your baby to be like, but nobody really gives the same consideration to your death, and you should have a death plan.
584. 43:11Nobody wants to talk about it. Right. Nobody wants

585. Julie

     43:13to talk So so you guys are right on the money.
586. 43:15So that's what a death doula is, and it could really be a lot of different things.
587. 43:18So you have... You know, some people do, like, the legal stuff.
588. 43:22Some people do, you know, spiritually. Or what is it...
589. 43:25You know, is there... If you're religious, like, what do you wanna hear?
590. 43:28If there's, like, just in a different spiritual space, is there a music or song, or are there incense you wanna smell?
591. 43:34Or, you know, I just heard recently, it was a great interview where somebody...
592. 43:38The husband loved Dylan, and they, like, jammed...
593. 43:42Like, the the... They said initially, like, the hospice people were like, no.
594. 43:45You can't do that. And she's like, yeah.
595. 43:47If the wife wants to do that with her husband, they're gonna do it.
596. 43:50Yeah. And so, you know, she helped, like, support them to do so.
597. 43:54So, like, I mean, I think it's a great example.

598. Host

     43:56Like, you know, scars them. Well, obviously, when your husband was dying, you weren't on this path yet.
599. 44:03Did some of that happen naturally with him?
600. 44:07You know, where he... You just started doing...
601. 44:09I mean, obviously, you said you brought people in that that were important to him.

602. Julie

     44:13Right. I think I did things intuitively.
603. 44:15Ly. Right? Like, so, you know, as far as family members, there was a loving...
604. 44:19He called her sweet Nancy, but she helped me raise my boys when I was working crazy hours.
605. 44:24And she's still a very, very, very important part of our lives and our families and I love her dearly.
606. 44:30And when she showed up, Jim, I... He put his hands on her face and he's like, Oh, sweet Nancy.
607. 44:37So like, yes, like, definitely call in the people that matter.
608. 44:43Yes, for Jim, it was actually, we had the windows open to the water and the boat That and was where his peace came from.
609. 44:54So I intuitively did a lot things that I just knew, right?
610. 44:59So I feel like he died very peacefully. And maybe that's a hard thing to say, but he did.
611. 45:05People will say, Oh, there was a good death, but he didn't suffer.
612. 45:08He went quickly and I would have loved more time.
613. 45:12The kids would have loved more time, but we, my children, myself, were with him.
614. 45:17The hospice nurses, everybody was the house, but we, or my boys were both holding his hands.
615. 45:25I was at his knees. He was on his bed. My parents were in the room.
616. 45:28And, you know, honestly, like, he just released his soul.
617. 45:32It was very... It was beautiful to witness.

618. Host

     45:34I'm glad that you that the boys were there because I think some parents, like we said in the beginning, you wanna protect and you you you don't want them to be a part of it because it's such a heartbreaking moment, but it's such a...
619. 45:49It can be a very match... It sounds weird to say magical moment, but it's an important moment.
620. 45:56So did you did you have any thought other than they're a 100% gonna be there?

621. Julie

     46:01There's no question. Yeah. Yeah. And my and my kids would...
622. 46:04They were 16 and 19. There's... They were right there with their dad through the end from this time we were home.
623. 46:10I mean, they were constantly with their father.
624. 46:12Know, it was... We were all together. Our family was completely engaged in supporting him.
625. 46:17But, you know, I mean, I understand people fear that people are gonna be agitated or they're gonna have different you know, end of life can look differently, you know?
626. 46:25And I you know, and as a death doula, that's also what you do.
627. 46:27You prepare people for what death may be, what the experience may look like.
628. 46:32And so it's really, really just honoring, you know, the family to make the best choices they can based on their circumstances.
629. 46:39Right? So my story is my story, but, you know, it's...
630. 46:42I think it's really important, right? Each one of us losing a spouse that we loved, it's different for each one of us and every listener as well.
631. 46:48So it's it's really... Ayluah Arthur, who I trained with is Alcoholic Going With Grace.
632. 46:54It's it's where I did my death doula training.
633. 46:57And she says something that think is amazing.
634. 46:59She says She talks about like leaning in.
635. 47:02So you lean in where you lean into support, like where that support is needed, but you also have a strong back.
636. 47:08So a lot of it is like where you have to see that patients be quiet, be in a compassionate, loving space.
637. 47:15So you really are going in and out depending on what the family needs.
638. 47:20Mhmm.

639. Host

     47:23After... Is there anything else that you wanted to share about that that time?

640. Julie

     47:29I just would say to people that, like, yeah, it was very traumatic.
641. 47:33It was... There was definitely, you know, I think death ends.
642. 47:36Some of it's tragic, like y'all are talking about, because things could be instantaneous.
643. 47:40Or in this situation for me, like, it felt like a slow kidnapping because, like, it's like, it was just...
644. 47:45He kept on... Couldn't get answers, and he he died still so quickly.
645. 47:49That I just think that everybody to be mindful, to really listen, to really know there is no fixing, to really hold space and provide love and compassion for people going through this.
646. 48:01And to really know not to be fearful to step in because for those people that we love, there was nothing more important for them to be there for us in those moments.
647. 48:12You know? Yeah. I describe in my book as well as like a chapter kind of about, you know, a tribe, a support, like how important that support is and, you know, that circle of support.
648. 48:23And I describe, you know, my mother as like being like the the trunk of a tree.
649. 48:28And it is... She was like the grounding force.
650. 48:32You know, everything else was the branches and the leaves and everything else that supported me, but she completely kept us anchored.
651. 48:39And that was literally after a few months of losing both her brother and sister.
652. 48:42So for me, she was like an angel. And so it's just...
653. 48:46You know, that's, I think, important to really share that it's just encouraging others that are listening to know, yes, please come in.
654. 48:54Please come with your love and compassion even if it's just sitting or taking notes.
655. 48:57Mhmm. You know?

656. Host

     48:59One of the things that I keep thinking about your transition from this into, like, a death doula.
657. 49:07And and and obviously, I I dove into the soul and stuff after a hundred nights, so I I can understand that side of it.
658. 49:13But they're talking about protecting yourself.
659. 49:17I remember thinking I never wanna feel this again.
660. 49:24And even my... I had friends, unfortunately, who had...
661. 49:29That lost their husbands, you know, two years after I did, And they wanted me to come and sit with them and I I dreaded it.
662. 49:37I went, but I didn't really wanna go into that space.
663. 49:41So I would love to hear how the, you know, how that transition happened for you because you weren't even in that space at all.
664. 49:51You know, you were talking to the Supreme Court.

665. Julie

     49:55Right. Well, I I wanna... First off, I wanna say I wanna affirm you.
666. 49:58Right? Because it takes time. Mhmm. And there is no timeline for, you know, grief.
667. 50:05I... You know, just like I'm crying with you guys today, seven and a half years later, it comes through us at different times and it's okay.
668. 50:11Right? And what I can do today, seven and half years later, I could not have done two, three years after my husband died.

669. Host

     50:18So you weren't in the death doula program, like, a month later or anything?

670. Julie

     50:22No. Not at all. So what I did was I kinda felt...
671. 50:27It's very interesting, but during COVID, I was working as my job as a lawyer, but it was an opportunity to become a volunteer with hospice in 2020.
672. 50:35And there's a beautiful program called Blue Butterfly.
673. 50:37And I'm so glad you asked the question because if it doesn't exist at home in Texas, but it it exists in Florida and it may exist in different places around the country, it's a program that's called Blue Butterfly.
674. 50:48And it's a grief therapy program where kids from the earliest ages, like very young ages to middles to adolescents, that there's a therapist and there's volunteers and there's programs for the family.
675. 51:00There's programs for the parents or who, you know, depending on who's remaining.
676. 51:04It could be for a parent has died, a sibling has died, a grandparent has died.
677. 51:10And that's what I started with. So I started there because it was...
678. 51:15That's how I connected to, like, my own children and they didn't have supports like that.
679. 51:20So I was drawn to a program that was really there for kids that were living and that were trying to find a way forward.
680. 51:27So just like your children and my children, that's where I was drawn to.
681. 51:31And my mother still works very readily in that program every other week.
682. 51:34So it's where I kind of started. Eventually, did some vigils.
683. 51:39And now I'll still volunteer for them, like, you know, Christmas time, they have a huge party and I was there and they have camps programs that I've done.
684. 51:46And so it's... That's what drew me in. So that may make make more sense to you.
685. 51:49Yeah. Went through different programs.

686. Host

     51:51Was just imagining, I mean, your life explodes.
687. 51:53So you lose your husband, you know, that that in itself is, you know, I mean, your your life...
688. 52:00Your old life is now gone. There's no, you know, that changes everything.
689. 52:05But then you leaned into it even more. When did that...
690. 52:11How long did it take for that to happen?
691. 52:14Or... I mean, like I said, I dove in... Literally, I had like 10 books at a at at a time I was trying to read and, you know, do all of that right away.
692. 52:24What were your few weeks like, and when did you decide to, yes, shift?

693. Julie

     52:29It's a question. So I did a lot of things.
694. 52:32I... I'm not typical in any way. So first off early

695. Host

     52:35It's got type A.

696. Julie

     52:38So, I kind of looked into EMDR and one of my sons was doing it.
697. 52:42He goes like, Mom, you're traumatizing me every time I go back in there.
698. 52:44I'm like, Okay, okay, we stopped. So like that didn't work for him.
699. 52:48And he ended up eventually doing some cognitive CBT therapy, which really supported him and kind of retraining and dealing with some of his anxiety around the death.
700. 52:57But for me, one of the things I did was yoga and it was COVID, and my doctor's daughter was actually she's the most her name is Shelby Elsbury, but she trained the New York City ballerina.
701. 53:08She was a professional ballerina herself, and she was just home.
702. 53:12So she did private yoga sessions with me outside, and we used to do it literally at sunrise and sunset.
703. 53:19And we... There were days, Florida would start raining and I would just cry and we would do yoga.
704. 53:25So that was healing.

705. Host

     53:26What a gift.

706. Julie

     53:27Yeah. Oh my God. I love her with my whole heart.
707. 53:30But so that was just... I always said yes, you guys.
708. 53:34You know what I say to your listeners too, say yes to what feels right for you.
709. 53:38Whatever that is, say yes. So I also... There's a woman here who, some people call it healing touch.
710. 53:45You know, I... It's a little bit different than Reiki, but in the sense of working with the energy and helping me release the energy in my body, she was a gift.
711. 53:53Again, we would do work and I would just purge, like literally just cry somatically.
712. 53:59So I kept on exploring myself for what I needed to heal.
713. 54:03And the thing is, it's available to everybody is get out in nature.
714. 54:07Go take a walk. Walk, walk, walk, and walk.
715. 54:09You know, I was blessed

716. Host

     54:11the feelings. Get out there and purge those feelings.
717. 54:14Cry in the rain. Scream. Do whatever you need to do to get it out.
718. 54:17Yeah.

719. Julie

     54:18Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, the point to answer your question is, yes, I did a lot.
720. 54:22And then I went out to Sedona and I did a lot of work in Sedona with different healers.
721. 54:26I really have complete... And I'm going back out with my...
722. 54:29I have a partner now that I started dating about two and a half years after Jim died, and he is a master in dealing with, like, trauma.
723. 54:36And God bless him. I believe with every part of my soul, my husband sent him.
724. 54:39Yeah. It was like a divine plan for him to be there for me.
725. 54:42But, you know, we have been so intentional around working through the grief, not ignoring it, not avoiding it, not denying death, but instead, like really walking through it.
726. 54:54And with that has come my healing. And that's allowed me to kind of step into really wanting to be in service, which is what I call, you know, consciously living awake and bringing presence to our lives now and really shifting to that place of thriving.

727. Host

     55:08What would you say to people that are listening right now that are still so heavy that saying yes seems impossible?

728. Julie

     55:16Take it one step at a time, one day at a time, that there's no right timing.
729. 55:22There's no, nobody gets to tell you how to do it.
730. 55:26You get to tell yourself. And that's like, you know, if I'm coaching any of my clients, it's really, I'm only the guide.
731. 55:34You yourself are the guide. It's going inside within yourself and truly listening.
732. 55:40And it's not, you know what? I remember listening to, you know, another show and it could've been, know, it's about when are we gonna clear out the closet?
733. 55:46You know, when are we gonna release things?
734. 55:48I still have things in my closet that were gyms.
735. 55:50You know? You you you you know, I take...
736. 55:52We were going to Australia. My time I like study abroad, my son was going to study in Sydney, and I am clairaudient.
737. 55:58I actually hear messages from my husband.
738. 56:00Yeah. And I know things. And he literally said, take one of my baseball hats.
739. 56:04He's like, I'm going with you.

740. Host

     56:06Love that. Well, I'm glad you brought that up because...
741. 56:09First of all, just I have to know, were you always this in touch with your spirit and your intuition?
742. 56:17And did you know you were, what is it? Clair audio...

743. Julie

     56:22So it's clairaudian is when you

744. Host

     56:23You can hear things.

745. Julie

     56:24You hear things. And then claircognizance is like when you know things.

746. Host

     56:27Know things, right.

747. Julie

     56:28And I've always deeply known things. I've seen things before they happen.
748. 56:33I hear things and like what people are thinking without them saying it out loud.
749. 56:37So I

750. Host

     56:38Well, that's scary.

751. Julie

     56:41It is a little scary, but it also... Like, it's really real.
752. 56:44Because sometimes I hear things, I'm like, woah.
753. 56:46You know?

754. Host

     56:46And you had that knowledge. You knew you had that before any of this happened with Jim.

755. Julie

     56:52Yeah. You know, my mom actually wrote the introduction to my book.
756. 56:56And I'll share this with you. And you're asking some great questions.
757. 56:58Haven't shared this on any podcast I've been interviewed on, but at the age of seven, her dad died.
758. 57:04And she came down one morning and then I said, mommy, granddaddy came and he was all dressed up and he was on the edge of my bed and he like tucked me in and I felt him like touch me.
759. 57:18And then he sat there like on the corner of the bed and she had seen him that night and she had had the same vision.
760. 57:26And she said she wasn't gonna tell anybody.
761. 57:28And she said she could not believe when she came down the stairs that I told her.
762. 57:33And that happened multiple times beyond that time.
763. 57:35So I, you know, from a very young age, I guess I had that sense of intuition, I, and I always remember like seeing things before they happened, but I think I've used it more like in my inter personal relationships, just allowing me to have a sense as far as communication and connection and and that sense.
764. 57:55But now, Jim comes through all the time.
765. 57:57And he... Yeah. I love

766. Host

     57:59to talk about this stuff. I love it.

767. Julie

     58:01Yeah.

768. Host

     58:02When was the first time that you remember Jim coming through to you?

769. Julie

     58:08It was pretty quick. It was days after he died.
770. 58:11So he... My phone, like, just like it is.
771. 58:14It's on the... It's off. It's sitting on the bed.
772. 58:17I'm, like, in the other room, like, swear.
773. 58:19Right? It's, like, thrown in the middle of the bed, and I hear Randy Travis' song, Forever and Ever.
774. 58:25Amen.

775. Host

     58:25Oh, yeah. I love that.

776. Julie

     58:26Okay. Now that song was not like... It was on our wedding video, And it was like the introduction of, like, lot of our...
777. 58:32Like, of our initial pictures together. Like, you know, we did, like, Each of Us and then Us together.
778. 58:36Yes. But it was... And and it was definitely one of our songs.
779. 58:40And the reason why I tell you that now...
780. 58:42So that was the first time. It's only a couple days after he died.
781. 58:44So it comes blaring out of my phone. Is crazy.
782. 58:48Off, and it's like... I'm like, okay. Okay.
783. 58:50Okay. Okay. Okay. Like... So what happens is my husband always makes me laugh and cry.
784. 58:55I always laugh. There's always laughter connected to it.
785. 58:59Another great story, I mean, my son William may not think this is so funny, but I think it's hysterical, is he loved the office.
786. 59:06And, you know, like kids, 16 years old, he's in deep pain, and he would just like...
787. 59:10He sat in his father's chair in the office...
788. 59:12In his office, his physical office in the house and in this, like, recliner type thing.
789. 59:17And he has on this huge TV, he's watching The Office.
790. 59:20And my husband is like, enough. And he turns the TV off.
791. 59:25No. Seriously, this is for real.

792. Host

     59:27I love it.

793. Julie

     59:27William starts in this banter with him, like, dad, I want to watch The Office.
794. 59:32And the TV comes back on. And then lo and behold, he turns it back off again.
795. 59:37And literally, it went, like, two to three times, and William finally got mad and said, enough.
796. 59:42I wanna watch The Office. And literally that it stayed on.

797. Host

     59:46I love that the kids are feeling it too.
798. 59:48Is your older son... Does he also... Yeah.

799. Julie

     59:51They... You know...

800. Host

     59:52They're very open to it.

801. Julie

     59:53Well, I don't know if they're very open or that my husband just shoved his way in and that made

802. Host

     59:57them open. They're accepting that it's him.
803. 59:59Like...

804. Julie

     1:00:00Oh, they know. Yeah. That's what

805. Host

     1:00:02I love. And my daughter... Really, I think all my kids are like that, but my boys kind of keep it more to themselves.
806. 1:00:08Whereas my daughter and I will be like, oh, there's dad, you know, oh, here he is.
807. 1:00:11He's showing up. But I do think that helps with their healing.
808. 1:00:16The the person that they love so much is still very present in their life.

809. Julie

     1:00:20Yes. For everyone listening. Yes. Yes. And yes.
810. 1:00:23Right? I believe part of my divine purpose, like, why am I doing this work?
811. 1:00:28Why am I here with you guys right now? Part of it is really for all of us to know that connection exists.
812. 1:00:33Mhmm. You know, I have a lot of different examples to be really honest, but my, to share one thing kind of on personal level.
813. 1:00:40So the partner that I've been seeing for years now is, his name's Glenn and his son is born on my youngest son's birthday and his son's was born in the same time my husband died.
814. 1:00:52And that was at 333. And before my husband died for about three years, he was seeing the numbers '30 '3 and 03:33 to the point that I have pictures of him pointing to the time or talking to people like, oh, this is $33.
815. 1:01:05Well, we have to do this. Or on his watch showing the time.
816. 1:01:08Oh, wow. I mean, this is not a kind of sort of thing.
817. 1:01:11And he talked to my best friend. I remember laying planned it down on...
818. 1:01:14In the one room in the suite of the hotel, and he's like, how am I gonna connect?
819. 1:01:17And they had a conversation that you're you're gonna connect through these numbers.
820. 1:01:21So he literally shows up all the time through the numbers.
821. 1:01:26And he, like, has affirmed where I'm living right now.
822. 1:01:28Like, the time on the... Like like, I live in a building, and the time for entry was not 03:33.
823. 1:01:33But when I came to look at where I live and I'm sitting right at this very second with you guys Yeah.
824. 1:01:37It said 03:33 there. And then ten minutes later, I'm up in this condo, like, take...
825. 1:01:41Checking it out, and on the microwave, it says 03:33.

826. Host

     1:01:44That's crazy. Okay? And... But it's so comforting.
827. 1:01:47I just love it. It it helps you realize there is such a bigger picture here.
828. 1:01:52Right. And and we can get so focused on just the littleness of life, and and I feel like death breaks that open.

829. Julie

     1:02:03Oh, gosh.

830. Host

     1:02:04Yes. You know? And Yeah. And not everyone knows how to handle it.
831. 1:02:09I mean, it it doesn't mean that we're not...
832. 1:02:11I mean, you were just crying. It doesn't mean that we're not deeply impacted by the death of our husbands.
833. 1:02:17It just means that we're we're open to learning the lessons from it and and and seeing the the real meanings behind everything.
834. 1:02:26I don't know. I get so energized by it, and I want other people to...
835. 1:02:32That are... I know are just so very sad right now.
836. 1:02:36They're just so so sad. And I just wanna, I just wanna lift them up with that knowledge of like, there is so much more than what you're...
837. 1:02:46You think is going on, and our people are here, and there is so much life left to live and so much joy.
838. 1:02:53I don't know.

839. Julie

     1:02:54No. I I I wanna say this. Right? Like, cause Holly, I do read minds, right?
840. 1:02:59Like, I know you might question this sweetheart, but you know, the bottom line is that it's hard maybe to believe in when we're in our mind, but when you go into a space, whether it's meditation or quiet or nature, or I would say to you, like, if you haven't connected and you kind of want to connect, was something I recommend is called automatic writing.
841. 1:03:21And Julia Cameron has a book about this called The Artist's Way, but you literally just write for fifteen minutes without pulling up your pen.
842. 1:03:30And rather than your brain giving you messages, you start to come through.
843. 1:03:34That's like really your soul is speaking to the paper.
844. 1:03:37So even every one of us has capacity, even if you think you don't, that they really are beautiful ways that we can connect.
845. 1:03:44And yes, I've been very blessed that my husband is very present.
846. 1:03:47And I don't question it because it's happened so often.
847. 1:03:50I mean, literally even as yesterday, if you wanna laugh, I was like taking a shower and I was thinking about Jim and I was thinking about something.
848. 1:03:57And I have on my like list, so it has hundreds and hundreds of songs and that song Forever and Every Amen comes blasting out that I've not heard forever.

849. Host

     1:04:04Yeah.

850. Julie

     1:04:05And then I get out and I tell my kids, I'm like, gosh, dad's around, pay attention.
851. 1:04:09And then I get this download. I hear, oh my god, you know what?
852. 1:04:13I forgot. We engraved our rings on the inside with it.
853. 1:04:17So I take a picture and I send it to my children to see.
854. 1:04:20I'm like, I'm not crazy. Here, see this.
855. 1:04:22This says forever. And all... You know, it's like says it in on...
856. 1:04:25Inside of the minivan. And then what's the next song that comes that...
857. 1:04:29I'm telling you. You you... People could think I'm crazy.
858. 1:04:31I don't care.

859. Host

     1:04:31But No. I talk about it all the time. And it comes through with music with me all the time.
860. 1:04:36Yeah.

861. Julie

     1:04:36Wait. So wait. So this is great. So the next song is Billy Joel, New York State of Mind.
862. 1:04:40So where are my kids? They're in New York.
863. 1:04:42Their their office is on the Hudson River.
864. 1:04:44That's where they are. I love busy, man.
865. 1:04:47Whole circle.

866. Host

     1:04:48Yeah. He is... He wants to make sure you guys feel him.

867. Julie

     1:04:52I feel like, you know, all of our spouses were young.
868. 1:04:55Right? They died young, and it's really rough.
869. 1:04:58Like, this is... Like, we talked about this.
870. 1:04:59It's not the same as living to an old age and dying, which is really sad.
871. 1:05:04But this is... Tragic deaths are rip your heart out.
872. 1:05:08Mhmm. And, you know, to find the strength to move forward, it takes work.

873. Host

     1:05:12Well, I know that there are people that are listening that are probably jealous because they're not getting...
874. 1:05:16They don't feel like their people are coming through.
875. 1:05:19So you would say, write things down.

876. Julie

     1:05:24Definitely the automatic writing. You don't feel it.

877. Host

     1:05:26In stillness, go in nature. Another one of our guests had said water and fire and I guess just nature.

878. Julie

     1:05:34Which is probably kind of the four elements, like the different elements.

879. Host

     1:05:37Yeah. Yeah. But but... Nature. Well, and like Suzanne talked about nature.
880. 1:05:41Yeah. Yeah. I do think getting close to, getting kind of centered with with the energy of the earth.

881. Julie

     1:05:49No. It's really important. I can't tell you how many miles I've clocked on the beach with my feet in the sand.
882. 1:05:55Yeah. You know, by myself or at sunset. Like, really sit and be wherever you are.
883. 1:06:00The sun rises and the sun sets.

884. Host

     1:06:01And then I love how you said your dad's around, you know, be aware.
885. 1:06:06Be be looking. And I think that's the other thing that you wanna...
886. 1:06:10We... I wanna tell people is you have to be open to be...
887. 1:06:15You have to be aware. Whatever you're looking for is what you're gonna bring...
888. 1:06:20You know, your attention is gonna bring in for you.

889. Julie

     1:06:23Well, I think what's really important what you're saying is being aware, but it's also there's a component of trusting and releasing the skepticism that, you know, like, how can this be?

890. Host

     1:06:33Yeah.

891. Julie

     1:06:33But the reality is, is that once you start to experience them, then you really trust them.
892. 1:06:38But like early on, like, again, like, you know, Jim was funny, like Jacob was having experience at college and he was transitioning back to Michigan and it was hard And something had happened and he didn't tell me and the lamp started to flash in the hotel room.
893. 1:06:51He's like, Oh my God, dad wants me to tell you.
894. 1:06:54And he had literally played a song and he cut it at three minutes and thirty three seconds.
895. 1:07:00And it was a song that was very personal to my between a father and a son, and it was a huge message to my oldest son.
896. 1:07:06But, yes, you have to be open and you have to be willing to listen.
897. 1:07:09Yeah.

898. Host

     1:07:10It it it it brings so much comfort, I think, you know, if you just accept it that that is them.
899. 1:07:17Why why wouldn't you? Why would you question it?
900. 1:07:21You know? I... That's what I always say.
901. 1:07:23Just, absolutely 100%. If you think it's them, it is 100% them.

902. Julie

     1:07:28Yeah. Yeah. So it's... Listen. So I have done a little bit of everything.
903. 1:07:32Right? So, you know, the death doula has come through a place of really wanting to guide people to what I call, you know, living and dying consciously awake.
904. 1:07:40Mhmm. And really, like, what does that mean for all of us?
905. 1:07:42It's for all of us, which any of us can do this, everybody listening, is being in a place of presence.
906. 1:07:47So being in a place of presence for your children, being in place of gratitude for the people that were there for you, you know, being really aware of making our choices that are meaningful.
907. 1:07:58And I say really, you know, I really strongly say no where you wanna say no.
908. 1:08:04Don't go places you don't wanna go. Don't spend your time with people you don't wanna spend time with.
909. 1:08:08Maybe that doesn't sound nice.

910. Host

     1:08:09Yeah, Renee.

911. Julie

     1:08:10But I'm like, you know, say no. I mean it.
912. 1:08:13Like, part of my greatest freedom has come through the lesson of saying no.

913. Host

     1:08:18Right. Right. Well, that's another that's another thing that I think death teaches you.
914. 1:08:23It's like, what do you wanna spend your time on?
915. 1:08:25Who do you wanna spend your time with? Because it can be limited.
916. 1:08:28So don't waste your energy on things that you're really not...
917. 1:08:31That aren't bringing you joy, aren't lifting you up.

918. Julie

     1:08:34And you know what comes through when you say that is part of what I teach in my coaching when I'm working with somebody, but also it's being in soul alignment.
919. 1:08:41I talk about it in my book as well, but it's about really what is your passion?
920. 1:08:45What is my sole purpose? No doubt, I made a huge difference in millions of kids' lives through my education law.
921. 1:08:51It was really important work and I'm so honored that I did the work.
922. 1:08:54Right? But I believe my purpose of being in this world today is helping others like ourselves move through this shitty ass pain of losing somebody that is so raw, so dismantling, so shattering to our hearts.
923. 1:09:09I never cuss, but it is just whatever.

924. Host

     1:09:11I cuss all the time, Julie. They're used to it.

925. Julie

     1:09:14And it just came through. But the bottom line is it's just...
926. 1:09:16It's horrible. Right? And it's just, you know...
927. 1:09:19But the bottom is like our ability to find what is our truth.
928. 1:09:24What is it that you really love? What is it that you're really passionate about?
929. 1:09:28And not only for ourselves, you guys. Yes.
930. 1:09:31For each one of us, for sure. But for our kids Mhmm.
931. 1:09:34To help them. Our Western society has this habit of doing and not being.
932. 1:09:40Right? So many people, it's all about making money, your house, what are you wearing, what's your car?
933. 1:09:45I'm sorry, though, you take none of it with you.
934. 1:09:47And when I'm with people at the end of life, what do I feel?
935. 1:09:50I literally feel the energy of love. We come in with that sacred first breath.
936. 1:09:55We leave with that sacred last breath, and we do not leave with any articles of clothing material of any kind with us.

937. Host

     1:10:02Not your PhDs, nothing. Yeah. None of it.
938. 1:10:05I'm feeling it right now with the kids because they're all in college, and I don't have as...
939. 1:10:11You know, obviously, I'm not supposed to have control over them.
940. 1:10:13But but because they've been in my... I tried.
941. 1:10:16I tried so hard. I'm working on it. But I'm I'm filled with a lot of, anxiety because I'm like, well, what are they gonna do next?
942. 1:10:25And they they too are... And I'm probably making it worse for them.
943. 1:10:29But they're also like, well, then I'm gonna do this, and then I've gotta get a job, and I've got to get this internship, and then that...
944. 1:10:34That is the opposite of present. Because you're already thinking about, well, what am I...
945. 1:10:38What's gonna happen next? And and how am I gonna get this job?
946. 1:10:41And then what am I gonna do here? And then...
947. 1:10:43Yeah. And... You're making me nervous. I know.
948. 1:10:45It it... It's so stressful, and so I love what you're saying because it's really about...
949. 1:10:51It doesn't matter. You... And we're talking about it right now with one of Holly's kids, you know.
950. 1:10:57Maybe the path that we were pushing them on, because that's the path everybody takes, isn't the path for them.
951. 1:11:04And we have to let them trust their intuition and and be okay with go on a different path.
952. 1:11:10And guess what? If it's the wrong path, then it's...
953. 1:11:12That's okay too. You'll come find another path.

954. Julie

     1:11:15It's...

955. Host

     1:11:15I've been making sense.

956. Julie

     1:11:17No. You're not only making sense, you're making, like, enormous sense.
957. 1:11:20And then... Okay. Great.

958. Host

     1:11:21Thank you.

959. Julie

     1:11:21It's a lesson that I had to learn myself.
960. 1:11:23My son was, the youngest one was finishing his chemical engineering degree from Florida, but my other son, they have a startup called Ohana.
961. 1:11:30It's for like subleasing platform for college aged kids, like for the summer for interning in New or London or other places.
962. 1:11:37He was doing the software engineering for my older son and they still work together.
963. 1:11:42And the bottom line is he took a whole semester off and then he ended up commuting back and forth from New York City to Gainesville to finish.
964. 1:11:49And he had to talk to the Dean of Engineering himself and kinda negotiate a plan to complete his education.
965. 1:11:56And he had, like, oh my god, almost a hundred and seventy hours, you know, high honors.
966. 1:12:00Mhmm. But the bottom line is he's... He had not, like, two classes to finish.
967. 1:12:03Yeah. And he had to finish them. And so, like...
968. 1:12:06But I was flexible in a way that I never would have been before.
969. 1:12:11Yeah. Yeah. Would have been like, no way.
970. 1:12:14You know?

971. Host

     1:12:14A good, message for... Because a lot of our audience are young mothers, and one of the stresses that you have after you lose your spouse is how am I gonna do it all?
972. 1:12:23I'm not gonna do it like they would have done it.
973. 1:12:26I'm not equipped to handle this. And all you wanna do is make their lives wonderful.
974. 1:12:32And so it's a great message of, you know...
975. 1:12:35You can't do it all. You you have to let stuff go.
976. 1:12:38Yeah. You have to let stuff go. And and and it's so every...
977. 1:12:41I'm hearing from your kid that your kids are doing pretty well.
978. 1:12:45They're... They are they are thriving.

979. Julie

     1:12:48They are thriving....

980. Host

     1:12:49Dead dad. And that's the same with all of the women on our podcast.
981. 1:12:53Our kids, you know, we worry so much about how they're gonna handle this, but all of our kids...
982. 1:12:59I mean, look, there's been some issues. It's not like it's perfect.
983. 1:13:03Of course. But they're not... They're they're they're resilient.
984. 1:13:06They're handling it. They're happy. And that's another message that we like to tell people because you do worry about how your kids are gonna do after that.

985. Julie

     1:13:15I wanna lean into what you're saying. Like, the resilience is possible for all of us, the children and for us, and there's no perfect.
986. 1:13:22Right? There's zero perfect. So for any idea, for anyone to think that, you know, there's some magic pill doesn't exist.
987. 1:13:28But finding that flexibility and really listening to our kids and really hearing what they want.
988. 1:13:35Like my younger son's looking at options and maybe making some transition in work, but I keep on just listening and holding space.
989. 1:13:41And I'll say to you, it's hard not to want to tell them what to do, but we step into a space of really guiding them.
990. 1:13:49And like I said, like as a mom, you want to be the nurturer, compassioner.
991. 1:13:53We think we have these roles as a male, female, depending on which spouse has passed or died.
992. 1:13:57Mhmm. But you can't, Holly, you're right.
993. 1:13:59You can't do it all. It's impossible. So you...
994. 1:14:01We... Each of us have to do the best we can to show up the best we can every day, and some days are better than others.

995. Host

     1:14:07And you're not gonna have all the answers.
996. 1:14:09I mean, sometimes I I I don't know how to guide them.
997. 1:14:14I'm... And I'm just like, I don't really know.
998. 1:14:17You know? And then I feel like a failure, but that's just part of it.
999. 1:14:21We're not supposed to know everything. This is their life, their path, their soul, And and so it's okay.
1000. 1:14:28There's just so much pressure on, I think, single parents in general to have to have it all figured out and...

1001. Julie

      1:14:34Yeah. But I would say to you, right, like shift the language.
1002. 1:14:37Right? Like, you know, we're all doing our best.
1003. 1:14:38Yeah. And I have many moments I thought I failed and like, my god.
1004. 1:14:41Or I got upset about something that I shouldn't have got upset about or I should have responded.
1005. 1:14:45You know, we... I think being a single parent, you just constantly are talking to yourself and questioning.
1006. 1:14:49Right? But I think when you could just kinda get in flow and really trust just like what you're saying, Whitney, that it's their journey, that it's their soul, that you know what?
1007. 1:14:58If you can find that trust in the universe, trust in the divine plan and know that they will be okay and truly believe it, they really will be.

1008. Host

      1:15:07And everything is a lesson to... You know, the death of my husband taught me so much, and I am grateful for it.
1009. 1:15:16Now would I love him to be here? Absolutely.
1010. 1:15:19But that's not that's not what's happening.
1011. 1:15:21So I'm gonna accept that and I'm gonna move forward with the lessons that I'm learning.
1012. 1:15:26And I like who I am aft... Since my... I mean, I liked who I was before.
1013. 1:15:30But I like who I am now, and and I do feel like I am, more of who I was meant to be.
1014. 1:15:39And that was because of the grief and the loss that I've suffered.
1015. 1:15:43So...

1016. Julie

      1:15:43But look what you guys are doing. I was telling my publisher today.
1017. 1:15:46It's like I'm talking to the women that are like the view of widows.
1018. 1:15:49I love the fact that you guys do this together.
1019. 1:15:51I think it's so

1020. Host

      1:15:52Well, before we go, I want you to talk about your current projects.
1021. 1:15:56You've mentioned your book a couple of times.
1022. 1:15:58The book is called Divine Ashes Ascending.
1023. 1:16:00It's not out yet. It'll be out in October.
1024. 1:16:03Oh. And then they can find that, on your website or...

1025. Julie

      1:16:08Yes. On the website, there's a book portal.
1026. 1:16:10They go straight to the email. If you give me an email, and we'll let you know as soon as it's out and available.
1027. 1:16:16And there's a free meditation on the website, so you can get that.
1028. 1:16:19It's

1029. Host

      1:16:19like Share your website.

1030. Julie

      1:16:21Oh, sure. It's at risingphoenix.life.

1031. Host

      1:16:24Yes. So... Yeah. You just open up guys. That project, which very...
1032. 1:16:27That's very exciting, and it takes a lot to write a book.
1033. 1:16:29So well done.

1034. Julie

      1:16:31I'm waiting for my line edit to come back from my my editor today.
1035. 1:16:34So I, like, I will be diving deep in as soon as I can.

1036. Host

      1:16:37That's so exciting. Yeah. And then you also spoke to me about a project where you're collaborating with some people called Butterflies Have Been Released.
1037. 1:16:45Can you talk about that for a minute?

1038. Julie

      1:16:47Yeah. So there's there's two producers. Their names are Barry and Jason, and they did a documentary called A Butterfly Has Been Released.
1039. 1:16:55They have their own. It's called tgbeyond.com, And it is a story, a documentary of a hospice nurse and her final days and really how she embraced dying.
1040. 1:17:10She did not have treatment. She had a huge celebration of life at home.
1041. 1:17:13She had a green burial. And so it's really about dying with agency.
1042. 1:17:18How can we own our death and how can, you know, Holly, like you said, like as far as talking about it and people not wanting to have a conversation, it's a wonderful entry point to having some tough conversations, like in a really loving way.
1043. 1:17:30Her name is Allison. They refer to her as nurse Allison, and she has this lovely spirit.
1044. 1:17:36And I'm actually meeting with Empath Tidewell Hospice, is our hospice locally and across the state of Florida, this Wednesday.
1045. 1:17:43And we're looking at collaborating, together with them with the film, my book as a launch.
1046. 1:17:49And the film itself, they've been working with the Hospice Foundation of America for continuing education credit for, like, social workers, nurses, and volunteers.
1047. 1:17:57So we're looking... I don't wanna do... I...
1048. 1:17:59You can see it. Like, I don't wanna do a book by book.
1049. 1:18:01I'm, like, I'm all about getting it, like, really out there, really Yeah.

1050. Host

      1:18:04All the all the things. I love that. And then you did mention your website and talk a little bit about Rising Phoenix and what your mission is there.

1051. Julie

      1:18:12Yeah. You know, my my my DBA, doing business as is Rising Phoenix Life.
1052. 1:18:17Anybody can reach me at julie@risingphoenix.life or on LinkedIn, it's julie wright halbert.
1053. 1:18:23But the bottom line is we all have choice.
1054. 1:18:27Right? We all have the choice. Are we gonna be the victim or are we gonna suffer?
1055. 1:18:31And, you know, I do talk about in the book, like like, looking at old photos and thinking, just like what you said.
1056. 1:18:36You know, Whitney, you said, like, you know, I had all of these things I envisioned that we were gonna have as a family.
1057. 1:18:40He was young. Like, this is like I'm being so cheated.
1058. 1:18:43Like, our family, my children, it's not fair.
1059. 1:18:45We all go through those

1060. Host

      1:18:46Right.

1061. Julie

      1:18:46Moments. But there was a moment in which I shifted.
1062. 1:18:50Right? And I started to see the memory. Mhmm.
1063. 1:18:53And I found gratitude and laughter and joy, and then my energy started to shift.
1064. 1:18:59Mhmm. So for me, that's the rising phoenix.
1065. 1:19:02So everything though, even though we're talking about death, everything is about life.
1066. 1:19:06And everything is about how we choose to live every single day, every moment that we have, everything that we do, everything that we are, and how we show up to the stranger on the street, the person at the store.

1067. Host

      1:19:19The ambulance driver.

1068. Julie

      1:19:21The ambulance driver. You got it. Look at my husband.
1069. 1:19:23I know. I mean, he was such a... I mean, that's...
1070. 1:19:26But that's such an important lesson. Right?
1071. 1:19:28Even until almost his final breath, he was teaching me.

1072. Host

      1:19:33Yeah. I love that. Ugh. I'm getting chills.
1073. 1:19:36What a fun, awesome interview. Thank you so much, Julie.
1074. 1:19:39Happy talking to you. We're... Let's... Let's go have wine.
1075. 1:19:43We'll come to Florida.

1076. Julie

      1:19:44You you know what? I have a great place.
1077. 1:19:45You know what? I have space for the three of you.
1078. 1:19:47Y'all

1079. Host

      1:19:48come. Yes. Take us on your boat.

1080. Julie

      1:19:50And and you know what? You may laugh, but I'm not kidding.
1081. 1:19:53I'm serious.

1082. Host

      1:19:53We're not kidding. We're gonna book a Well, we wanna read the book, and then we'll have you

1083. Julie

      1:19:58back on and talk

1084. Host

      1:19:59about Yeah. Well, we're gonna put all of these, everything that we've talked about, we'll put in the show notes, so that you can go to Julie's website.
1085. 1:20:08You'll have the name of her book, and you'll know how to get in contact with her and, well done, girl.
1086. 1:20:15I mean, I'm sure you hear from Jim that you're just...
1087. 1:20:18You're doing... You're killing it. You're

1088. Julie

      1:20:20doing I wanna send it back to the two of you.
1089. 1:20:22I think it's really important. And to all your listeners and to Keira who's...
1090. 1:20:25It's not here. Is that right, Keira? Right?

1091. Host

      1:20:26Keira.

1092. Julie

      1:20:27And that's my niece's name, by the way. So that's kind of funny.
1093. 1:20:29It's a funny funny coincidence. So, anyhow, I just really wanna say you're making a difference.
1094. 1:20:35And that and that there's nothing... There's not a lot for this younger widows that have lost with with younger children.
1095. 1:20:41And so to me, like, when they asked me about interviewing with you, it was like an absolute yes.
1096. 1:20:45And I think it's so important what you're doing and just keep doing it.
1097. 1:20:49You know? Think about... You know, keep on thinking out of the box.
1098. 1:20:52Like like, you know, I'm here. How can we...
1099. 1:20:55I'm happy to bring my book and the film and whatever to your city.

1100. Host

      1:20:58Oh, yeah. We could do it on a romantic.

1101. Julie

      1:21:01Know, I I work just like getting sponsors just like to be able to bring it all forward, but they're they're willing...
1102. 1:21:06The guys that I'm working with are willing to go anywhere.
1103. 1:21:08So, you know, I'm open. So be be creative and just keep on making a difference.
1104. 1:21:14I'm I'm proud of you. You guys are doing great job.
1105. 1:21:16So much.

1106. Host

      1:21:16Thank you so much. Alright. Well, we will be in touch.
1107. 1:21:19Get those guest bedrooms ready.

1108. Julie

      1:21:21They're ready. They're clean. Come on now.
1109. 1:21:24You better be careful. I need it.

Machine transcribed, so names, some words and who is speaking may be off. Tap a line to listen from there. Julie on Every Widow Thing, with Whitney & Holly. Also on YouTube.